[Tommies] John Thompson, son of David
gcfraser at peoplepc.com
gcfraser at peoplepc.com
Thu Feb 5 14:55:54 EST 2009
Quint,
"As is supposed..." means it is pure speculation with nothing to back it up.
That is why I have traveled to Scotland and England in an attempt to track
down primary source materials. That is also why I believe that David
Thomson of Corstorphine is the only one by that name from that time period
that fits all the criteria. He is a well-educated, Scottish "gentleman"
(strict rules as to who would qualify) who was a scholar (David from
Corstorphine was a Philosophy major at the University of Edinburg) and well
connected (through his step mother, Agnes Foullis) he was of the family of
the Sec'y of State of Scotland Thomas Hamilton, the Earl of Haddington;
David Foulis, the ambassador from Scotland to England, and his step-brother,
Adam Hepburn, was the legal clerk to Haddington and became a senator.
Thomas Morton in the New English Canaan describes David as a Scottish
Gentleman, a scholar and traveler. Others also described Thomson as a
Scotsman. How would they know this if he didn't have a Scottish accent.
David signed his name as "Thomson" though English documents list him as
Thompson (the English variant of the name.) An individual would be jailed
if they referred to themselves as a Gentleman and they were not. David is
referred to as Mr. David Thompson, Gent. in the 1623 Massachusetts grant
naming him Governor on behalf of the Council for New England. It is signed
by Ludvick Stuart, the Duke of Lennox (King James's beloved cousin), the
Marquis of Hamilton (highest ranking, next to the Duke, who use to ride
through Corsptorphine on horseback) and Thomas Howard, the Earl of Arundel
who was the Earl Marshall - in charge of heraldry for England. David wrote
a three page letter to the Earl that he preserved in his library (it is
posted on the Tommie website.) I have never found a reference to David among
Sir Ferdinando Gorges papers, nor does David reference him though they
worked together as peers for the Council for New England and clearly knew
one another. Gorges obtained power after King James, Hamilton, and Lennox
died suddenly (suspicious circumstances) and Arundel was sent to the Tower
because his son married Arabella Stuart which made the family eligible for
assuming the throne of England. He was later released and William Crowne
became his clerk as a young man. Later, we find Crowne living in Mendon
where he knew John Thompson.
David and Amias wrote fluently as documents prove. Our Thompson ancestors
also seem to have been quite fluent. Even my grandfather in the 1700s in
Richmond, Vermont wrote fluently and therefore was a town official - I have
copies of his handwriting I obtained from the Vermont archives.
To make an assumption that David Thom(p)son was the son of a household
servant was based on finding someone of that name in the records from the
outskirts of London where Ferdinando Gorges once lived. I have never found
evidence (only speculation) that his family was connected with the Gorges
household. Later Gorges is at the port in Plymouth where a David Thom(p)son
married Amias Coles. An English minister writing the name into a registry
would spell it with a P. David spelled his name without a P - based on his
signature. The idea that a household servant from London would somehow
transform himself into a well-respected and highly connected and educated
Scottish Gentleman who is given grants equal to a Barony is ridiculous.
The man who conducted the genealogical investigation into the Thomson's of
Corstorphine was one of the most respected genealogist of his time -
Theodore Radford Thomson - (A Catalogue of British Family Histories) I have
been able to verify most of what he writes but cannot find the final link
tying him to Robert II of Scotland - though based on everything else around
this family - it appears to be so - including David's father, Magister Rev.
Richard Thomson's preferment's from King James I- he averaged close to 600
lbs per year in the late 1500s - not your typical parish minister's salary.
David is named heir to his father in 1607 (when he came of age) and is also
listed in a lawsuit with his step mother to obtain some teinds from one of
his father's former parishes. Alexander, the Earl of Home is their
lawyer - a favorite of the King.
The book on the Thomson's of Corstorphine mentions David but focuses on
Theodore Radford Thomson's ancestors, as might be expected. The family had
married into the Forrester's of Corstophine and shared a Sinclair
grandmother whose brother built Roslyn Castle (check out the DaVinci code.)
Their father, Henry Sinclair, legend has it, traveled to North America 100
years prior to Columbus.
Genevieve
PS The Mendon genealogies mention the name Ferdinando - obviously, the
families had been tied in with Ferdinando Gorges. Robert, his son, had
traveled to Massachusetts to claim his grant but couldn't stand the place
and left. Some of his companions stayed on - including the gentleman,
Samuel Maverick.
Genevieve Fraser
Faculty
University of Phoenix
1mackenzie at email.phoenix.edu
gcfraser at peoplepc.com
(978) 544-1872
(978) 846-8719 (cell)
Pacific Time Zone
----- Original Message -----
From: <quintinth at aol.com>
To: <gcfraser at peoplepc.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Tommies] John Thompson, son of David
Hi, No source that I can see. He does say, "---as is supposed." As to
whether or not he is referring to 'brothers' or 'patriarchs' I do not
know.
I first came across this book ( a good copy) in the History
section of the Library at Toledo, Ohio while researching Earl Thompson,
son of Charles Blancher Thompson. At the time I thought it would help
in my quest so I made copies of some pages. Later, I had gone to the
Woburn, MA library because one family tree of CBT went north from
Mendon, MA to Woburn. At the Woburn library there was another copy of
the book. It was well worn (hold together by a ribbon to contain loose
pages) and with handwritten entrys. I made some copies from this book.
The recent questions on the Tommies web site caused me to
revisit what I had copied thus the inquiry. At least Durham is a common
denominator. :) Quint
-----Original Message-----
From: gcfraser at peoplepc.com
To: quintinth at aol.com
Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:12 pm
Subject: Re: [Tommies] John Thompson, son of David
Quint. What were the sources for Rev. Thompson's claim? Or was it
speculation? There was another Thompson family that settled in the
Durham
NH area. A long time ago I tried to make a link and there didn't seem
to be
one.
Genevieve
----- Original Message -----
From: <quintinth at aol.com>
To: <gcfraser at peoplepc.com>
Sent:20Wednesday, February 04, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Tommies] John Thompson, son of David
Hi, Backing up some generations I have a question.
What about Robert?
In the book 'Memorial of James Thompson--" by Rev. Leander Thompson,
A.M. Boston, 1887 on page 6 it says, "Another family is said to have
settled in or near Portsmouth, N.H., about 1623, or a little later.
Two BROTHERS. David and Robert, as is supposed, were the patriarchs.
David was the agent of Mason and Gorges, and subsequently lived on an
island, which still bears his name, in the Boston Harbor. Robert
ultimately settled in or near Durham, N. H., and his descendants are
still found in that town and elsewhere, in large numbers."
In the genealogy that I have there is no Robert, son of Richard &
Florence (Cromlan), the parents of David (wife Amyes Colle)
Thompson/Thomson.
Can anyone explain. Quint Thompson
-----Original Message-----
From: gcfraser at peoplepc.com
Sent: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 9:44 pm
Subject: Re: [Tommies] John Thompson, son of David
Betty,
Thanks for taking the time to research the RIHS
records. Mrs. Haviland also wrote on Medfield and Uxbridge History.
Uxbridge is important if you are looking for a Quaker connection -
which I
suspect from one of my ancestors who moved to Smithfield, RI - a Quaker
hotbed
that met in Uxbridge for meetings. Medfield is where o
ur ancestors
escaped
to when the Indians turned their anger on Mendon during the King Philip
Wa
r.
Along with the date of birth, the association with the
Whites in Weymouth and Mendon, and William Crowne offer additional
clues.
Crowne was also associated with Thomas Howard, the Earl of
Arundel as was David Thomson (remember his 3-page
letter in 1625 to the Earl.) Also, Samuel Maverick also held land in
Weymouth. It was where the Gorges associated folks lived while the
Pilgrims and Puritans spread their wings throughout the
Commonwealth.
Refer back to the Massachusetts grant naming David as the
governor under the Council for New England. He is referred to Mr.
David
Thompson, Gent. To use Mr. and Gent. in the same title is
redundant. It is believed by at least one major historian, David
Howarth,
author of Arundel and His Circle, that David was a ship's Master. I
have
also found a Mr. Thompson, Master of the ship Jonathan in early
Virginia Records
- about 1619. Recall the letter - he mentions his impression of folks
in the South - not flattering.
John was referred to as Mr. John Thompson when he was a
ship's master, but we all know he lost everything. Goodman means
landowner. A person can be more than one thing in one's lifetime.
Frankly, I find Richardson's analysis to be idiotic. Because he is
referred to as Goodman in Mendon he cannot be the same person as Mr.
John
Thomson - a title he held when he was=2
0a ship's master!!
Best Wishes,
Genevieve
PS The Mendon Families by Havilard is also on
microfilm available from Mormon Research Centers.
----- Original Message -----
From:
morrisb
To: 'Discussion list for David THOMSON
& Amias COLE descendantsandresearchers.'
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:00
PM
Subject: Re: [Tommies] John Thompson, son
of David
Genevieve,
Yes, I
believe it is probably the book you describe. Early last month Ms.
Lee
Teverow, Reference Librarian at the RIHS, answered my inquiry about
a
hand-written book of records or recollections about early Mendon.
She
wrote:
"Thank you for your inquiry regarding the book
about Mendon, MA. There are two items listed in our catalog that
might be what
you're looking for. The first is "Mendon families," by Elizabeth
Seamans
Haviland (RR F 74 .M59 H28) and it comprises 5 volumes of handwritten
genealogical materials arranged alphabetically by name of family. The
second
is "The proprietors records of the town of Mendon, MA, incorporated
May 15,
1667," transcribed from manuscript records (RR F 74 M59 M54.)"
I asked
Christine Lamar, a researcher on the list that Ms. Teverow sent to
me, to look
at these two books with our problem of identifying John Th
ompson of
Mendon
with John Thompson, son of David and
heir to Thompson's Island in
mind.
She reported as follows:
"The
two books you suggested I evaluate are as described. I was not
allowed
to make copies from either:
1. The Proprietors Records of Mendon,
Massachusetts, incorporated May 15, 1667. Boston, Rockwell &
Churchill Press, 1899. It is a printed transcript produced by
members of
committees from six Massachusetts towns. It is land records
which do not
appear to add anything definitive to your David/John Thompson
question.
2. Mendon Families by Mrs. Frank Haviland. n.d. (ca.
1901-1929) unpub., unpaged, bound mss in 5 v. The volume I
looked at was
V. 5 TH-Z.
Contained the following:
David and Amyes
(sic)
son John Thomson 1619- 9 Nov 1685, m. Sarah
son John b.
1642- 1715 m. Thankful Woodland
dau Mehitable (no birth date given)
m. Samuel Hayward 9 June 1670
dau Sarah b. 2 July 1644 m. John
Aldrich 1678 son of George and Catherine
A list of John's- b.
1642- children was also given as follows.
John 1667-1749 one of the
early settlers of Bellingham
Sarah 12 May=2
01669
Ebenezer 1 Oct
1677
Samuel 4 Feb 1679-1704
=0
AWoodland 27 Jan 1681
Benjamin 17
Sept 1681
David 24 May 1687
Hannah 3 Aug 1689
There was
no indication of sources or mention of Thompson's
Island."
Ms. Lamar
looked at other sources at RIHS but found nothing that
suggested that
John Thompson of Thompson's Island was the same as John
Thompson of
Mendon. Except for the fact that they were born in the same
year
and that John Jr. of Mendon named a son David, either man's
timeline
stands independent of the other's. There is nothing that
contradicts their being the same man (except Douglas
Richardson's
article) but nothing connects them, either. I hate to continue
claiming David as an ancestor when respected genealogists seem
to doubt
it. Let's hope we can find the "smoking
gun"!
Betty
Lou.
-----Original Message-----
From:
tommies-bounces at wellswooster.com
[mailto:tommies-bounces at wellswooster.com]On
Behalf Of gcfraser at peoplepc.com
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:16
PM
To: Discussion list for David THOMSON
& Amias COLE
descendantsandresearchers.
Subject: Re: [Tommies] John Thompson, son of
David
Betty,
Is the
Mendon Families a cloth bound,
hand-sewn document which mentions Amias and David at the top of the
Thompson
section?
Genevieve
From: morrisb
To: 'Discussion list for David
THOMSON & Amias COLE descendantsandresearchers.'
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28
PM
Subject: [Tommies] John Thompson,
son of David
To Gen Fraser and all Tommies: Trying to find
evidence that John Thompson son of David and John Thompson of
Weymouth and
Mendon are one and the same person, I followed your clue that
there was a
hand-written item at the Rhode Island Historical Society library
with this
information. I contacted the reference librarian there and was
told
they had two items that were hand-written and concerned Mendon.
I
hired a researcher from the library's list to look at these two
items.
One was The Proprietors' Records of
Mendon, mostly land records, and does not "appear to add anything
definitive to our=2
0David/John Thompson
question."
The
second is Mendon Families by Mrs. Frank Haviland, n.d..(about
1901-1929) and repeats the lineage of David to John and through
the Mendon
20 Thompsons -- as we have long accepted it to be --but includes no
sources.
I
continue to hope we will find proof someday that our John
Thompson, of
Weymouth and Mendon was the same person as John Thompson, son of
David. The two men were born in the same year and tradition says
they were the same man but we need more than this to convince
other
genealogists.
Betty
Lou
-----Original Message-----[Betty Lou
Morris] ,
From:
tommies-bounces at wellswooster.com
[mailto:tommies-bounces at wellswooster.com]On Behalf Of morrisb
Sent:
Wednesday, December 31, 2008 3:41 PM
To: 'Discussion list for David
THOMSON & Amias COLE descendantsandresearchers.'
Subject: Re:
[Tommies] Welcome Sharon Thompson from
Alberta
Thanks, Gen, for your response about the
proof that John, son of David Thompson, was the same person as
John
Thompson of Mendon. I wonder if
any of the Tommies has in
his/her
records the citations for the date, place and source for (1)
the birth
of John, son of David and (2) John of Mendon? Does anyone
have a citation for the late 18th/early 19th
20 century hand-written book from Mendon at the Rhode Island
Historical Society that lists David as the father of John? I
looked at the RIHS online catalogue and did not find it there.
Does anyone on the Tommies list have access to that
library?
Betty Lou
-----Original Message-----
From:
tommies-bounces at wellswooster.com
[mailto:tommies-bounces at wellswooster.com]On Behalf Of
gcfraser at peoplepc.com
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:24
PM
To: Discussion list for David THOMSON & Amias COLE
descendantsandresearchers.
Subject: Re: [Tommies] Welcome Sharon
Thompson from Alberta
Betty Lou,
I don't have the facts at my fingertips,
but John of Mendon was the same age as John, David's son.
There
are other reasons too including a late 18th century/early
19th century
handwritten book in the RI historical society from Mendon
that lists
David as the father of John.
Genevieve
----- Original Message -----
From:
Quintin
Thompson
T
o: Discussion list for
David THOMSON & Amias COLE descendants
andresearchers.
Sent: Friday, December 26,
2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Tommies] Welcome
Sharon Thompson from Alberta
Hi, Gen sometime ago
you gave remarks supporting this claim. I have a print out
of
it. Maybe you can up date it and pass it on to Betty
Lou. Quint
On Dec 16, 2008, at 4:41 PM, morrisb
wrote:
Let me add my greetings of welcome to
you, Sharon. We Tommies are a pretty scattered and
diverse
group, but we all claim David Thompson as an ancestor.
My particular hang up is the question of proof that John
Thompson
0A of Mendon, MA, from whom we all descend, is the same
man
as John
Thompson, son of David. If you have any information to
help
with this, please let us know.
Betty Lou
Morris
Mount Clemens,
20 MI
-----Original Message-----
From:
tommies-bounces at wellswooster.com
[mailto:tommies-bounces at wellswooster.com]On
Behalf Of Alyce Elliott
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:36
PM
To: dick at hodgman.org;
Discussion list for David THOMSON & Amias COLE
descendants
andresearchers.
Subject: Re: [Tommies] Welcome Sharon
Thompson from Alberta
Hi
Sharon, thanks for joining us. I believe I know your
Uncle
Frank, if it's the same Frank Thompson -- met him on
this
list. You and I (and others on the list including
Frank)
share an ancestor: C. B. Thompson, my great
grandfather.
=2
0 I'm eleventh generation wrt David Thomson, see my line
here:
http://www.wellswooster.com/tommies/alyce.htm
Do
we have the same line in common? At least up to
Charles? Welcome to the Tommies list and I look
forward to
seeing further posts from you.
Alyce Thompson
=2
0 Elliott
At 10:11 AM 12/14/2008, you
wrote:
Tommies,
On Monday, 11/17/08,I
received the Fall 2008 newsletter from Thompson
Island Outward
Bound. On the back page (attached to this message),
I
found that Sharon Thompson of Alberta, Canada had
visited
Thompson Island and wanted to reach out to other
descendants
of David Thompson. I contacted her by email, gave
her a
synopsis of our 2001 (Re)union, and pointed her to
the Tommies
website. She has joined our email list.
Please join me in welcoming Sharon to our group.
--Dick
===========3D================
Dick
Hodgman
dick at hodgman.org
http://hodgman.org/
p.s.
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